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Good post. Many good thoughts there, I must say.

Your point quoted above is, I believe, the most important point available today. And I say this as a typical left-wing humanist, but also as an anthropologist by education. It is absolutely essentials that men around the world cease to be mere breeders and control-freaks, and that the women of this world cease to be perceived – by whole societies (not only by the male side of the social fabric; far from it) – as “cooking and cleaning baby-factories”.

But again – as a an anthropologist – I must add that, even though I (an many others) perceive this as the most important factor when it comes to dealing with population explosion, I can do nothing except admit that ancient cultures and social traditions are features of human life which are very, very difficult to do much about.

Social and cultural processes take a lot of time. Embarking on large-scale awareness campaigns would be, I believe, a better (and actually also more honest) option.

But okay: international diplomacy and honesty?!!

Ha? No. -

I second what Trinifar said. Much truth in your comments.

As far as I can tell bipolar gender mapped a set of social power relations onto sexual reproduction categories. It’s the basis of the whole them versus us, black versus white, bad versus good bipolar way of thinking.

Very interesting point, and one I think everyone should think about.

One last thing. I am sick and weary of this idea that growth has to keep happening.

That makes two three a bunch of us. :^)

My question is how to bring more people to that level of understanding.

…so why are we sitting at our expensive, rich-nation technologies, whingeing about all this?

Here’s my take on it. There are too many people. As measured by the degradation of the ecosystems that support all species not just ours. 2/3 of all petrochemicals used daily on this planet (80 million barrels per day) are used to transport people and freight on land, and the majority of that 2/3 is for people transport.

So it’s really simple. Don’t go forth. Don’t multiply.

This is what we, and others, chose to do years ago. No more kids till it appears that more humans are needed, because “having babies” is a lie, what people “have” is larval human adults..

No more jetting, no more driving except for the most basic needs, and a vast slashing in all forms of consumerism. Buying what’s available locally and used. Learning to live far more simply.

This is not a national issue, not a racial issue–climate change doesn’t care what species you are, never mind what flavor of human being you are as viewed by other human beings.

This is a moment in our species’s history when we get to choose whether we are going to continue the agricultural madness of converting every ecosystem to fodder for our stomachs and our breeding egos…or whether we are going to find something more valuable, connected, and compassionate to live for.

I should say that I don’t even believe in bipolar gender, considering it one of the great mind-fucks of the past 10,000 years. As far as I can tell bipolar gender mapped a set of social power relations onto sexual reproduction categories. It’s the basis of the whole them versus us, black versus white, bad versus good bipolar way of thinking.

One last thing. I am sick and weary of this idea that growth has to keep happening. And I gave up a career in environmentalism that was lucrative and ego-inflating. I actually got flown around the planet to tell people there was an eco-crisis! After a few years I couldn’t rationalize it anymore. Now I see environmentalists–with their jobs and careers to protect–as some of the biggest hypocrites.

Empower women to make our own reproductive decisions. Let no one take that power away. So many poor women I’ve known have had lives revolving around breeding because, to put it bluntly, men kept knocking them up. In the female human, sexual pleasure and reproduction decoupled a long time ago, evolutionarily; it hasn’t yet in men. But men insist on defining women’s bodies, women’s spirits, and women’s roles according to that male thing that orgasm = zygote.

Thank you for reading my words.

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http://www.coe.int/t/commissioner/Viewpoints/070122_en.asp

Quote: “The recent EUMC report focused on the situation in the member states of the European Union and tried to assess the more structural aspects of the discrimination. It concluded that many Muslims face unfair treatment in employment, education and housing in EU countries. Young Muslims in particular meet barriers to social advancement:”

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I believe, very strongly, that nationalism has a thing or two to do with all sorts of racial-based discrimination; not only in Europe, of course, but everywhere.

Now: there’s a rather new form of racism on the loose on this continent, as the rich countries of Western Europe are being invaded, not only by Africans and Asians, but by eastern Europeans as well. Polish people, Hungarians, Bulgarians, and Rumanians for example. Cheap labour, for short. I mean: how many people are woking on slave contracts in Western Europe today? It’s impossible to say. But the fact remains: Eastern Europeans travel to the West, get paid peanuts, but do not complain; Western peanuts amount to a whole lot of money in the Eastern countries they hail from. They accept all forms of rotten accommodation, they do not dare to complain about anything, and – on top of that – they never get to see any of the locals smile at them. ‘Cause the locals hate and loathe them: “Here are the people who take our jobs,” they say. When the fact is: it’s the industry bosses who are looking to cut down on production costs.

As the saying goes: “There’s a Polish plummer on the loose in Europe.” – One who is making it difficult for young Westerners to find a job and get a decent income.

I should say that I fully agree with your assessment of some on the right. There does seem to be a fear in some quarters of a decline in European/Western/Anglo-Saxon influence. I don’t share these fears. I think it is a good thing that more voices are heard. Well overdue.

I merely wish to suggest that we need not view low immigration policies of Europe with disdain or disgust. Clearly countries such as France and the Netherlands have radically altered their demographics through high levels of immigration though probably comparatively lower than the USA. Both of these countries are dealing with some associated social unrest and tension. Now, this may be largely due to hostile attitudes on behalf of the unfriendly local hosts, but it may still be a reason for some to question the future shape of migration policy. I have no problem with countries choosing a high immigration pathway (my own is per capita higher than just about all), but I hope that it is with the consent of the people and not because of a growth imperative built into our economic system or indeed because of some other economic imperative on its own.

I had typed this fab response in regards to Norway and you being next to Santa Clause, so how bad could your country be, but then my power went out…

I believe as you do that we should all be able to go where ever we want, whenever we want.

__________-
Now when I initially wrote the following I was responding to something that someone said, but there have been so many responses, but I still want to type it

Oh I found something–

““If you’re well educated and in this sence well of, you’re welcome to Europe. To others Europe would rather say “bye, bye”. Magne in regards to Europe.

In the U.S. I know for a fact the welcome thing, not true.

In regards to immigration, sometimes I can’t help but think that it’s more about nationalism than anything else.

There are people who are not low impact people who are capitalist or better yet pro capitalism in regards to a kind of an economy, but still don’t like immigrants from places that aren’t western Europe. Even if those immigrants are adding to the economy and making it “better.”

For instance in LA we have in recent years has many immigrants from Taiwan come over. They are educated, industrious, they are everything that people claim they want in an immigrant population. They brought up the test scores in working class neighborhoods in the San Gabriel Valley, they pushed the prices of houses in upscale San Gabriel Valley neighborhood even higher, but yet still…you have people complaining and whining and changing the standardized test because the kids from Taiwan were scoring too high…

I was very disappointed in this country. This may sound very silly to many of you, but that’s when I knew America really is racist. I swear up until that moment, I truly thought well, if people tried harder or they did this differently, but when I saw how the people from Taiwan were treated wow, it opened my eyes. I mean they did everything right.

Phds, kids where great students, they started successful businesses…I mean what more can you do? I mean that’s America. Do they have to make their eyes round?

Also it’s odd how people who are very pro business can get very into being low impact when the business people are the wrong color.

Lo

Quote: “If you’re well educated and in this sence well of, you’re welcome to Europe. To others Europe would rather say “bye, bye”. This seems to be the idea of European immigration policy. Politicians want to get rid of immigrants with irregular status eventhough the aging Europe needs them.”

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The whole article is worthy of a read, as I think it sums up a lot of the issues that are concerned with third world immigration to Europe.

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This may actually be true. But I believe that it’s more a question of the manner in which the natives of the country in question receive their immigrants, than it is the other way ’round.

As a matter of personal idealism, I have a strong belief in “every person’s right and freedom of movement.” – Like Salman Rushdie used to say: “Man was born with feet, not with roots.”

But I’m not going to let myself be portrayed as a person who can’t see that conflicts may arise. ‘Cause believe it or not: they do.

One of the things we love about European countires is the remarkable richness of linguistic, literary, artistic and other cultural traditions reaching far back into history. Traditions, perhaps, that may not be best served by massive levels of immigration/emigration.

Are the levels “massive”? Why won’t those traditions be well served by immigration/emigration?

(We have a political pundit in the US, Pat Buchanan, who often speaks like this and I may just be projecting what I’ve heard from him onto Verdurous’s words.)

To Lo’s question I think the G8 countries have to do both — address their own consumerism and push family planning and women’s and children’s right hard everywhere.

Wish I had time to say more. Great post.

I don’t think Pollitt is suggesting these countries compensate for their shrinking (or potentially so) populations through huge increases in immigration. Her first point is that they needn’t really compensate for it at all. Better to learn how to adjust to it, as it’s actually an very good thing in the long run.

Her next point, though, concerns how they are choosing to deal with it. They’re clearly not choosing the immigration option, and you make an argument for why that one could perhaps be taken too far. But they’re not choosing the “adjust” option either. They’re choosing to try to add to the world population by increasing fertility rates. Pollitt suggests a much better option (though one which might be debatable in terms of its practical feasibility) — to bring into the mainstream all those people already there, but who are lost to poverty and isolation. (social programs instead of fertility programs)

Now, the point I added is that the right wing writers in the US who complain about these European population declines are not, I don’t think, concerned (as you are) about a loss of the diverse cultures in Europe. The question is, would they be fretting that way if some similarly sized Third World countries were facing possible population declines. Well, they might if that meant a reduction in vast numbers of cheap laborers fueling corporate growth. But on the whole, I sense they’d be less concerned. I can’t read their minds, so I’m not positive, but it does have a feel of some sort of racism or colonialism — the weakening of the Western (white) Empire… that sort of thing. So that’s where my own suspicion of something akin to racism comes from here. Is that any clearer?

Perhaps the future solution to caring for the swollen aged demographic in Western countries lies in radiacl economic re-engineering as John has suggested. It seems bizarre that we in the West might only work for 35 years of our average 80 year lifespan. So combined with longer careers, perhaps also, the re-discovery of the extended family and the de-institutionalisation of the caring industries (i.e. taking aged care and child care out of the “paid” economy) might make it possible to allow our populations to stabilise or drift slowly down.

http://trinifar.wordpress.com/2007/03/22/learning-from-iran-about-family-planning/

It seems to support the kinds of approaches in the lists I linked to above, plus provides some other ideas too.